Throughout the literature, opinions abound as to how this text should be interpreted—is it a parable; does it refer to the intermediate state; can we lift details from such a text, etc? Pro raises a very important question: where in the Bible does this idea come from? The Case for Conditional Immortality: A Brief(ish) Summary by Graham Ware ... For a variety of reasons, the early chapters of Genesis have been the topic of considerable debate. The main aim will be to present the various arguments and highlight certain themes that need further attention. 11, no. Socrates is only arguing for things that are perceptible and not perceptible (you can either observe something or can’t). Stott’s case is that our preconceptions force us to read it in this manner, whereas the passage never actually defines the nature of those eternal states. On the annihilation side, Fudge believes that even if conditional immortality were true according to Scripture, the existence of positive teaching on eternal conscious torment would convince him otherwise—if it existed. It is when I make my decisions on those feelings alone, and ignore the witness of Scripture, that danger comes. By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. There are numerous other matters that need to be taken into consideration within the context of this debate about the meaning of the biblical texts. 1:17; 6:16); he reveals it and gives it to us through the gospel.’23 Helm admits ‘that Scripture does not teach the immortality of the soul in so many words’.24 However, sufficient teaching on hell exists to make the case irrelevant. Jude 7 And don't forget Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring towns, which were filled with immorality and every kind of sexual perversion. This suggests a greater burden on the Pro than simply “proving” it’s biblical. Specifically, these translations are refering to aspects of Hell, and therefore describe the concept as opposed to simply refering to Hell as a location. In the first death, only the body is destroyed in the graveyard. If you haven’t picked up on that subtle nuance already, some who believe in conditional immortality believe that the fires of hell are meant to eventually “consume” the person. Case in point: the soul may not be immortal at all… or may not even exist. We need to exercise caution in this whole area, as it is all too easy to import contemporary ideas of victory and justice into a situation of which we know very little. Perhaps the strongest argument used by traditionalists is the idea that those in hell are continually impenitent. This debate either has an Elo score requirement or is to be voted on by a select panel of judges. Obviously, if the Pro wants to defend this idea through biblical references, as he did in round two, that’s his choice. This is not the place for that conversation. 15:28) to come out? The following is an examination of what is commonly called "conditional immortality" -- that a person's "immortality" is conditioned on receiving eternal life. Let’s consider this argument a bit further. by The Bible Thumping Wingnut Network from desktop or your mobile device are all super structural, the basic belief of a Christian is the assumption that the soul is immortal. More importantly, if we're going to remain consistent with this logic, then lets erase the Christian faith. The first arises from the need to construct a rigorous and proper biblical anthropology. This time, we will consider a number of challenges to this understanding including: Philippians 1.23 “depart and be with Christ” 1 Corinthians 5.8 “absent from Read more about Theology 4 – Challenging Conditional Immortality … People dissenting from more traditional views are accused of doing so for ‘emotional’ reasons, whatever they may actually be. First, it’s important to recognize that as Con, I’ve been asked to “defend the traditional idea that the soul is naturally immortal”. The Westminster Press. This interpretation can best be summed up in the Westminster Confession1: a reformed confession of faith made in 1646 by the Church of England that remains influential for many forms of Christianity world-wide. It is oftensaid that this heaven will be eternal both quantitatively and qualitatively,the former r… Support Preston. The problem consists in being able to justify an eternal sentence for crimes committed in a finite amount of time. 28 G. Bray, ‘Hell: Eternal Punishment Or Total Annihilation’, Evangel 10.2 (Summer 1992), p. 23. It is often said that this heaven will be eternal both quantitatively and qualitatively, the former referring to duration, the latter referring to the type of eternal existence. The idea that a soul survives death without eternal existence is a far fetched notion that isn't found in the traditional view of the soul, nor Conditional Immortality as far as I'm familiar with. 5 J. Wenham, The Goodness of God (Leicester: IVP, 1974); the work also provides helpful warnings concerning decisions on the issue, and a brief history of how Wenham learnt of the doctrine; the chapter dealing with hell has been revised and stated less cautiously in The Enigma of Evil (Guildford: Eagle, 1993). Revelation 14:10 is interpreted by Stott and others to refer to the moment of judgment, rather than to everlasting conscious torment. Although some writers argue that this is not the case, others argue just as cogently that fear of a conscious judgment followed by ‘nothingness’ is just as real as fear of eternal pain.36As for hell as a moral deterrent, such a case arguably misses the Christian understanding of ethical action, and may lead to confusion in the doctrine of justification by faith. One note of caution. Just to summarize: first, the Pro argued that the Greek terms I cited actually reference a variety of terms, and therefore can't be grouped under the general translation of "hell". When God created Adam and Eve, He granted them conditional immortality. If my soul isn’t in control of my body, then my body could go on living after the annihilation of my soul. This line of argument parallels discussions of universalism in many ways. The use of apollumi (to destroy), when employed in an active form, points towards extinction (as when Herod plotted to kill Jesus: Mt. In contrast, conditional immortality has a much shorter history, and the suspicion that this is a ‘new’ idea has caused evangelicals, whichever position they take on the debate, to be hesitant when discussing the matter. More recently, the doctrine has received the renewed interest of a specific debate amongst evangelicals concerning whether hell is eternal conscious torment or whether the wicked are annihilated after judgment. If so, then why isn’t Conditional Immorality the “traditional view”? To wrap up: I have defended why the Pro’s initial challenge for both sides must go beyond the simple biblicalness of each idea. Now then, the Pro seems to recognize this point, and even highlights the fact that the New Testament was originally written in Greek. The case is presented in his doctrinal thesis, ‘The Hermeneutics of “Hell”: The Fate of the Unrighteous in New Testament Thought’, Australian College of Theology, 1993, forthcoming from Paternoster Press. This was in response to the disagreement between Christian beliefs and the biblical vacuum, where I was arguing that the very source of Christian beliefs had Greek influences. Take, for example, the concept of Hell. Conversely, Fernando replies that this use in Judith shows that the natural interpretation of fire in the Jewish mind was concerned with pain, not destruction.11 Stott maintains that it is reasonable to assume that although both the worm and the fire are everlasting, the consequence may still be destruction. 191–222. He implicitly accuses conditionalists of believing that no-one survives death except the redeemed—thus the wicked are destroyed at death. Furthermore, my evidence above highlights that many Christian historians and theologians found divine knowledge and the pursuit of spiritual truth to be at the very core of this philosophy. I too look forward to this interesting discussion. There is no doctrine I would more willingly remove from Christianity than [hell], if it lay in my power … I would pay any price to be able to say truthfully: ‘All will be saved.’1. If beliefs come strictly from the Bible, and I’ve demonstrated that this traditional view is never directly mentioned in the Bible, then how can any mainstream Christian faith believe in this view? Paul calls this gift (immortality) an integral part of the gospel message, "Who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 … … Summary: • Why tradition about the fate of the lost, (as torment forever) is unbiblical and not hermeneutically correct. 32 See Fernando, Crucial Questions About Hell, p. 69. This debate has been configured to only allow voters who meet the requirements set by the debaters. He makes four arguments to support this claim: These are some fairly complex arguments to make, so I’m going to end with a basic summary of my position and the challenges this position presents to Conditional Immortality. 93ff. Warnings and loving invitations intermingle to encourage us to flee the wrath to come.39. I’ll keep things simple by going down his list of critiques. To agree with something on the Pro suggests arguing for it, as the Con has been challenged to argue for an opposing idea. Where exactly did Jesus or God pen their own words within the Bible? Much work needs to be done (especially on hermeneutics, concepts of justice, and assumptions concerning immortality) and much is left for future discussion and debate. Understandably, traditionalists view this as an easy way out. If my soul can’t retain the things that defined my experiences in life, then my resurrection would be like hitting the reset button. Pro is asking for evidence that the soul survives after being the constant for human life. First, this isn’t exactly what the argument is saying: the soul survives. Souls aren’t physical or perceivable and therefore don’t play by the same rules as other physical objects, like the human body. Stott’s second argument concerns the biblical imagery of fire. Suffice it to say that any weighing of the cases must be done carefully and with prayer! The whole debate between soul immortalists and conditional immortalists comes down to this: one group says that the soul lives on when the body dies, thus declaring its nature to be immortal (soul immortalists), while the other side says that the soul isn’t immortal by nature but becomes immortal when the person receives Jesus (conditional immortalists). The Pro seemed dissatisfied with my reasoning for bringing in Greek philosophy to challenge the logical inconsistencies with Conditional Immortality. 1 Timothy 6:16, and God alone has immortality 2 Timothy 1:9-10, God brought life and immortality to light through the gospel Jude 6-7, angels and the wicked undergoing punishment of eternal fire Although justifications may be provided for this apparent problem, it seems that they must be independent of the annihilationist debate. Given the common idea of an immortal soul within many forms of Christianity, and Pro framing this debate using Christian interpretations, I will use a mainstream, Christian interpretation of immortal souls. However, it seems right that we should never be afraid of feeling the force of our emotions, as long as they are never allowed to be the overriding force. The first concerns the biblical texts, and how these should be interpreted. 66:24, and how best to understand Rev. Stream Hell Debate | Len Pettis VS Chris Date | "Is Conditional Immortality Biblical?" We simply insist that that great gift will be given to humans at the appropriate time. Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. If so, the main reason is that the torrent of books and articles against annihilationism may have left some of its arguments ignored or in the background.37 Although the conclusion of this survey is that annihilation is at the very least an option which ought to be considered fairly and honestly, there remain major problems which proponents of the doctrine must tackle. Why is that important to the debate with annihilationism (or conditional immortality)? I laid out a case for conditional immortality from several important texts. The two main thrusts of the story are the reversal of fortunes and the irreversibility of the two states.15 Traditionalists emphasize the physical aspects to this story. Starting off, it is important to clarify the two positions of the pro and con. Once again, the Pro raises some interesting issues in this debate. However, if annihilation is true, a gospel still remains to be taught, and it is a gospel that is just as desperately needed. Nevertheless, even his extensive investigation leaves questions unanswered concerning the interpretation of specific texts (especially the use of Is. Through much of history, conditionalists have been arguing against the idea of an immortal soul that is impervious to the flames of eternal torment. Granted, as the Pro claims, some of the verses I cited only reference eternal fires. The Pro is attempting to argue that I’ve essentially “given him the round” by admitting that the Bible makes no specific reference to an immortal soul. Objections to this interpretation are numerous, and Stott himself attempts to deal with some of them, albeit briefly. Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.". The Pro “believes that Christian beliefs were born completely from the Bible.” If this is the true, and current mainstream Christian faiths believe in an immortal soul going to Heaven or Hell, then these beliefs must come from the Bible. Annihilationism, which is usually associated with conditional immortality, states that the wicked will not suffer conscious torment for ever, but that after death and judgment they will be destroyed, ceasing to exist. Its primary audience is theological students, pastors and scholars. Early Christianity was influenced both from its Hebrew roots, "Philosophy has been given to the Greeks as their own kind of Covenant, their foundation for the philosophy of Christ ... the philosophy of the Greeks ... contains the basic elements of that genuine and perfect knowledge which is higher than human ... even upon those spiritual objects.". Geoffrey Rowell’s work, Hell And The Victorians, is the most comprehensive, and together with the essay by David Powys on the nineteenth—and twentieth-century debates, it is well worth consulting.4. Can God ever possess the opposite of being all-powerful? Blanchard emphasizes the personal pronoun—the smoke is of ‘their’ torment, and thus the suffering must be everlasting. Defunct 3 Angels Conditional Immortality Library (Mother Lode) Č. Ċ. Kendall Harmon has been critical of conditionalists for importing a timescale of events into biblical material which in itself provides no warrant for such detail.33 Thus, conditionalists envisage death for the sinner, then subsequently resurrection, then punishment, and then destruction. ), Universalism and the Doctrine of Hell, p. 187. All of these passages describe a place of eternal damnation, which sits quite well with the traditional idea of an immortal soul. Simple put: souls are immortal and will either go to heaven or hell. Finally, if Conditional Immortality upholds these qualities about the soul, then Socrates’ arguments for an immortal soul generates some complex questions Conditional Immortality needs to account for. How is it that ten commandments that Moses brought down weren't probably his personal views that he put into the mouth of the stone version of his creator? His explanation and use of definitions is likely to confuse, as he distances himself from the label of conditional immortality. Do all these faiths actually believe in Conditional Immortality? 107–8. Annihilationism is directly related to the doctrine of conditional immortality, the idea that a human soul is not immortal unless it is given eternal life.Annihilationism asserts that God will eventually destroy the wicked, leaving only the righteous to live on in immortality. With John Stott we ‘plead for frank dialogue among evangelicals on the basis of Scripture’.38 In all this speculative debate, it is perhaps best to end with the wise words of John Wenham: And let it be quite clear that these realities are awful indeed. They were probably Plato's personal views that he put in the mouth of the book version of his teacher.". Again, Travis summarizes the point well: ‘Eternal torment involves an eternal cosmological dualism, which is impossible to reconcile with the conviction that ultimately God will be “all in all”.’31. Some traditionalists argue that the redeemed will in fact agree with God’s judgment and glorify him for it, even over the loss of our loved ones.32 Perhaps perfect joy and regret can co-exist in the light of God’s glory, or maybe the life of heaven entails learning to live with the realization that not all wanted to embrace God’s love. I will supplement some of this with material from other conditionalists, and then consider the responses made by a number of traditionalists. Support Preston by going to patreon.com. Pro challenges my argument because of the common assumption that people retain their identity in Heaven. No votes have been placed for this debate. All of the biblical scholars/theologians are actually right: Christian beliefs have been influenced by sources outside of biblical scripture. ", Eusebius6 – “But when I read those books of the Platonists I was taught by them to seek incorporeal truth, so I saw your 'invisible things, understood by the things that are made’.”, In defending the traditional idea of the Immortal Soul, I’m required to draw from these influences unless I want to commit a fallacy against my own position. Jesus and his disciples taught again and again in terrible terms that there is an irreversible judgment and punishment of the unrepentant. He argues that the main purpose of fire is not to inflict sensory pain, but to destroy. But when I read those books of the Platonists I was taught by them to seek incorporeal truth, so I saw your 'invisible things, understood by the things that are made’. Conditionalists have never argued against the concept of human immortality. Recollection Argument: it’s a common assumption that if I can get into heaven, I will recall details about my past life. 8 See especially Clark Pinnock, A Wideness in God’s Mercy: The Finality of Jesus Christ in a World of Religions (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1992), and ‘The Destruction of the Finally Impenitent’, Criswell Theological Review 4/2 (1990), 243–259. (Bridgend: Evangelical Press of Wales, 1991), p. 14, notes that at least ten years earlier Stott expressed his agnosticism concerning the precise nature of hell. Pro is asking for evidence that the soul survives after being the constant for human life. However, it is also possible that Jesus and his contemporaries thought in terms of an ‘age to come’, yet this age was, in their minds, totally without end, especially when linked with the phrases ‘for ever and ever’ or ‘to the ends of the ages’. Fundamentalists may preach vividly about the fires of hell, and liberals have long heralded the downfall of eternal damnation, but what can we say about a doctrine which leaves many people highly embarrassed? Some attempts have been made to trace the history of the doctrine.3, Conditionalism, in its various forms, received the most attention it has ever had during the debates of the nineteenth century, and this is well documented by various scholars. In other words, Christian beliefs aren’t born solely and directly out of the Bible. Preston and Chris is diving into the topic of Annihilation or Conditional Immortality. In effect, annihilationism masks the larger problems of hell.35 It may be unfair to criticize annihilationists for believing such a doctrine because it appears to be the easier ‘option’. See Stott, Essentials, p. 316, for the confusion of terms. We gain "immortality" only from the gospel. We have described the position of conditionalism, which attacks one of the premises of the traditional understanding of hell on the grounds that the wicked will not be given immortality and hence shall not suffer in torment for ever. It seems that many of its advocates can quite rightly be labelled as pillars of conservative orthodoxy. A Debate on the State of the Dead.pdf (888k) Robert Joseph T., 28 Jul 2013, 04:42. v.1. For instance, the rich man in the story refers to his physical body by begging Abraham to send Lazarus to dip water onto his tongue. 168. A relevant example of this idea would be the difference between Man and God. Given this, Socrates argues that the soul is the constant presence for the relationship between life and death and must be separate from this relationship. Babies are a good example of this. and 2) What is your church's position on the doctrine? Cook, "How Deep the Platonism," 269-286 in Farms Review of Books, vol. If this is the case, and if this misplaced assumption has become the determining presupposition, then such annihilationists will need to reconsider the case and return to the biblical material. It is my belief that traditionalists have often not listened to the arguments themselves. 35 Jonathan Kvanvig, The Problem of Hell (Oxford: OUP, 1993), pp. The argument is forceful: where is the love and justice in eternal (i.e. Interestingly enough, we also find references to Greek translations of hell: Acts 2:27–31 'For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption. Finally, the Pro is attempting to win this argument on an over-simplified logic fallacy: either Conditional Immortality is biblical, or the Traditional View is biblical. This discounts any other possible option without any sort of logical reasoning. This Conference into the unquenchable fires of Hell in terms of Conditional immortality from several important texts,... 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